Interview with Prescient Therapeutics (ASX:PTX) CEO & MD, Steven Yatomi-Clarke

Ben Williamson
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[00:00:00] Ben: All right. Welcome Steven. We've got Steven Yatomi-Clarke here from Prescient Therapeutics, how are you going today?

[00:00:06] Steven: Sensational and getting better. Ben, how are you?

[00:00:09] Ben: I've heard stories of every type of illness going around the traps at the moment from COVID to colds.

[00:00:16] Ben: And I've got three kids and I feel like they’ve all taken turns to bring something home. So, I've been battling a bit, but getting, as you say, getting better.

[00:00:25] Steven: Good to hear mate. Good to hear.

[00:00:27] Ben: So why don't we just start off with the super quick elevator pitch?

[00:00:31] Steven: Prescient is developing innovative treatments for cancer from the world's best institutes, taking two broad approaches, a targeted therapy approach, focusing on things inside the cancer cell that go wrong and also cell therapy, which is the new frontier of cancer treatment, where we're looking at things on the outside of the cancer cell, but where we are using a patient's own immune cells and weaponizing those as the ultimate cancer killer. That's us in a nutshell.

[00:01:00] Ben: I feel like there should be almost like a cartoon of it drawn with lasers or something firing at it. It's a cool approach. So that's CAR-T, right?

[00:01:07] Steven: That's right. CAR-T is one of those approaches. Absolutely. It's the future. It's established, it's not science fiction, but it is producing unprecedented response rates that we've never seen before. It's incredibly exciting to be part of that field, let alone to be at the front of it. So very exciting indeed.

[00:01:26] Ben: And you've obviously been going for a while now, how long has it been that you've been on the board? How long have you been working on this technology?

[00:01:33] Steven: So, I started at Prescient 2016. The only assets we had were our foundational assets PTX 100 and 200. Company was in poor shape at that stage when I took over, unfortunately. It was a turnaround story. There was, two assets and no money. Nothing was documented the way it needed to be. And so that was a slow boat to turn around.

[00:01:56] Steven: I knew the work needed to be done, but like renovating a house. When you take over, when you're renovating a house, you think you understand what needs to happen, but it's not until you take the. That the plaster boards off and you realise, "okay, that needs rewiring" or "take the floorboards out."

[00:02:10] Steven: It's not until you're in there. You realize what needs to happen. I found myself in a similar position, the more we looked under the hood, the more back filling and work needed to happen. And that’s something the market never, ever sees, but it was a very big undertaking.

[00:02:24] Steven: And I think I underestimated how long that would take that took. I thought it might be an 18-month exercise, but that was really the best part of four years to be perfectly honest. If not a little bit longer to get, yeah.

[00:02:36] Ben: Yeah, you do tend to see that. If you look at the chart over that time from 2016, you're joining to today, relatively flat, looking back from that 16 to late 20, and then things really started to take off that's where you went from that $0.05, $0.06, $0.07 range sitting at$0.17 now a great run and it's been as high as sort of high twenties, is that right?

[00:02:58] Steven: $0.32 or something I think was our highest. Yeah, I think that's reflected a couple of things, but I don't want to make it sounds like we were just doing just repairs and that's all we were doing. Like repairing the airplane while you're flying it though, that was the challenge.

[00:03:12] Steven: So, we were delivering some decent results with our foundational assets in that timeframe. I knew it wasn't going to, we you have to just keep moving. So, we needed something more and I wanted to get ahead of the curve for cancer treatment. And I knew that at that stage, there was a big gap in cell therapies.

[00:03:30] Steven: There was no companies in Australia, certainly any listed companies doing it. We were the first. So yeah, we were the first ones to do that, dipped our toe in the water 2019 and in 2020announced licensing this incredible new platform that we might get time to talk about today from the home of CAR-T the people who invented it.

[00:03:50] Steven: And that was really the, really a springboard. And since then, all of our assets have been performing very well, which is you really pleasing. Yeah, it's good to have. It's good to have tailwind in that respect.

[00:04:01] Ben: Tell me about the platform. because I, I was, my next question was really going to be. How did you take the business through that jump? Did in house develop, did you go and license, did you go partner? How did you go from your foundational assets to the things that you’re really pushing forward a lot more with now?

[00:04:18] Steven: Just to take a step back this thing called CAR-T because your listeners will be saying, "what on Earth is CAR-T?" It's basically a way of again, sounds like science fiction. A cancer patient goes into the hospital and blood is taken from them and you isolate their immune cells called T Cells, which are really good at fighting infection like viral infected cells and whatnot, but they're not good at recognising cancer. So, you take those cells and outside of the body, you engineer a receptor on them so that they can now sniff out and latch onto the cancer and therefore kill the cancer. So, you're redirecting your own immune cells to, well you're weaponizing them (they're) now seeking out cancer cells and in certain blood cancers, it's had an unprecedented level of success, such that people are now talking about cures.

[00:05:05] Steven: A cure for cancer. Who would’ve thought we'd be talking about that in our lifetimes? But it's now looking like that. So, at that stage, one type of blood cancer, in particular, that was being treated. It was a very clunky, very bespoke type of treatment.

[00:05:20] Steven: Think about it every time you wanted to get a suit, it was like you had to go to Saville Row and get a bespoke suit made by a tailor each time. That's what this treatment is. It's not going to; it’s not going to clothe everyone. Is it liking most people want to get something off the rack it's cheaper, it's faster. It suits most people.

[00:05:36] Steven: And so, I knew that a lot of the bottlenecks that were happening not only in how you make it, but yeah, just the inherent limitations in the technology. You can't redirect them. You can’t control them once you infuse them because they're living cells. And I thought, wow. Whoever can take this, who, whoever can solve some of these problems of control of logistics, of being able to direct it against more than one type of cancer antigen, whoever can do that is going to blow the doors open. For taking CAR-T that's revolutionised just a couple of cancers. Why can't it revolutionise many different cancers? That's probably 2018, 2019 now I really started searching high and low for the technology that could do just that.

[00:06:24] Steven: It took me everywhere, but it eventually took me to the home of CAR-T, which was the university of Pennsylvania. It's an Ivy league uni in the US, you might have heard of Carl June, he was one of the pioneers of CAR-T and I looked at a few things in their stable, some interesting tech, specific targets, but nothing that was going to really solve some of these problems. Until under a CDA I found this platform that, people said, have you spoken to this particular scientist? He might have what you’re looking for. And I did. And at that stage, it wasn't public. The patent wasn't published, and the publication wasn't out yet.

[00:07:01] Steven: And I looked at it and I said, this is exactly what we need. And I had a checkbox for what these types of technologies should do. And yeah. I remember sitting there in a Qantas lounge, laughing as I was reading the paper, because I was just ticking every single box. Couldn’t believe it.

[00:07:14] Steven: And won their confidence over a number of months. Really. It was the hardest negotiation that I've had to undertake, to convince them that we were the right partner. And at this stage, everyone was still looking at that first-generation type of thing and no one was really focused on this type of modular - a plug and play platform if you like - this treats living cells as like a Lego set where you can plug and play against any different target and give the clinician full control. By the time we managed to snap up the agreement, I think the whole field had realised, yes, this modularity is the key to success. So, it was just being in the right place at the right time and being proactive,

[00:07:53] Ben: Look, I think I think it's easy to dismiss things like that in retrospect as right time, right place. But even by your own sort of talking through, and I'm not trying to blow any smoke up here, you spent two, three years beforehand on the journey, you went around the globe trying to find something.

[00:08:09] Ben: You had a predetermined checklist of where you think this would go in the future. You didn't just take what was easy, but you found extra areas and then saw it when other people didn't and negotiated it. Yeah. I, to say it was a right place, right time is probably underweighting.

[00:08:27] Steven: I'm pretty proud that the company’s managed to, to nab this because once again, if it was a few years earlier, it would’ve been too bit too exotic and too early, and the technology wouldn’t have been right. And you know what? A few years from now, it might even have been too late. If it was a few months later, someone else would've snapped it up. There's no question.

[00:08:45] Ben: With bigger pockets with bigger market cap, all that stuff.

[00:08:49] Steven: No doubt. No, there's absolutely no doubt. But was it Woody Allen that said 80% of successes showing up?

[00:08:56] Ben: One of, one of many, yeah.

[00:08:58] Steven: You've got to do the work. I feel quite vindicated now when we are interacting with a whole bunch of external people and the slides that we are putting up and the work that we are replicating and advancing on this platform, you show them the data and they just lean into the screen and they say, "You can do what?"

[00:09:15] Steven: It's quite amazing. It just gives me a little bit of vindication that it was the right direction to head in. And not only are we going to be developing next generation cell therapies for our own products, but this could potentially benefit a whole bunch of other external parties as well.

[00:09:32] Steven: Those brave enough to stop what they’re doing and pick up our recipe book and do it our way. It's going to help a lot of people.

[00:09:38] Ben: That's awesome. And hopefully appreciate the share price and the market cap. That's the goal, right?

[00:09:43] Steven: That's right. I think the ultimate goal is, we've got a couple of masters to serve, one's cancer patients and one's shareholders, but they're actually quite aligned.

[00:09:52] Steven: If we can develop therapies that reach patients and are effective for patients, shareholders are going to win. At the end of the day, 10 million people die every year from cancer every single year. Just think about that. Like in the last decade, that's the population of Japan just gone (to cancer).

[00:10:09] Steven: If we can make a dent in that, and CAR-T has started to, if we can bring that to more cancers, then we'll be doing a very good thing. And even with our earlier programs, or should I say our foundational assets, which are currently in clinical trials, it's tremendously satisfying to know that, like PTX 200, we've had four complete remissions inpatients who normally wouldn't have lasted more than six months. Our current PTX 100 study we've had we've now got, a bunch of responses from people who had no business being alive. That's tremendously satisfying to know that in addition to all our past trials where patients have benefited. It's still in development and there's no definitive data out yet, but the fact of the matter is, if it wasn’t for these clinical trials, these patients wouldn't be alive and that’s tremendously rewarding.

[00:10:58] Ben: And I think that's one of the really, as you say, rewarding things of biotech, right? You get this great alignment of financial upside. The simple version is why is my money better offing your bank account than in mine? And if you can align the financial upside with saving people’s lives it's amazing.

[00:11:18] Steven: It is. Yeah, like in my former life, I was an investment banker focusing on healthcare companies, and, on a good day, people would make money.

[00:11:26] Steven: Your clients would make money and a bad day they'd lose money. And it just doesn't bear a comparison to my role now, which is on a bad day, someone's lost their lives. And on a good day, you’ve saved a patient I mean, come on. It's tremendous. Tremendous. The stakes are tremendously more rewarding, but yeah, once again, if the patients win then everyone wins.

[00:11:49] Steven: But we do find a lot of shareholders actually who've made money in other industries in the autumn years of their career. Especially the ultra-high net worths, they all gravitate back. At some point they get in touch with their own mortality, the disease touches themselves or their family, and they come seeking companies in our sector saying, "we want to be part of this. We want to give something back.

[00:12:14] Ben: I think yeah. Investors like to invest in areas that they understand. So that's why there's a lot of, say, younger people investing in early-stage technology stocks or later stage technology stocks. There’s a lot of people who hold Facebook because they use Facebook and Twitter and Uber, et cetera. As obviously, as people get older, they're a higher proportion to either be directly or closely touched by things like cancer. And so, they go on a bit more journey. It's more in their world. They want to try and solve it. And especially if they can marry their commercial upside with their personal desires. It's a win-win.

[00:12:52] Steven: Yeah, I think so. And that's why I chose this as a vocation, I guess. When I started choosing, what my specialty, when I was studying, I always, I didn't want to be stuck at the bench.

[00:13:03] Steven: A research bench, but I knew that it’s hard to pick, cycles out, decades in advance, working out what's going to happen for the rest of your career. But I knew for sure that there will be an insatiable demand for better health, for more food, and cheaper energy and environmental remediation, and the crux of all of that is biotechnology. So, I thought, "I'm focusing on biotechnology".

[00:13:31] Steven: And so here we are, and, headed down the healthcare path. And you look at the current, recession that we're all facing... Look, nothing is completely recession proof, but if you're a cancer patient, you might defer an appointment, but only for so long. And if the cost of a treatment goes up for whatever reason government or otherwise at some point, you’re going to have to get that treated, there's a elasticity to demand here that you just don't see in many sectors.

[00:14:01] Ben: I also imagine, if you're looking at this purely financially, and you're taking people who are facing a medium to long term cancer treatment process with a, say a lower chance of success or a medium chance of success in that there's a lot of medical cost in that to be fully treated, hopefully recover. But like my mum’s had cancer, she had check-ups for years and she had to have surgery and after the surgery, then she had to have extra surgery to fix up the first surgery. There was just, procedures and procedures on top. If you can essentially have a non-invasive way, besides a few needles of trying to treat this that would save tens of hundreds of thousands in medical bills for that patient. I would imagine you're like deeper path to it and therefore play into a high inflation and play into, to that zone.

[00:14:54] Steven: I think there's an underlying question on the sustainability of healthcare costs there. And to that I'm very critical of pharmaceutical companies that are gouging, but I think what people have to realise is that the overall cost to the healthcare system, pharmaceuticals and therapeutics contribute, depending on the country, between 18 and 22%, the overall costs of healthcare.

[00:15:16] Steven: It's a convenient whipping boy, “look the cost of drugs are so high." Yep, okay. But it's most of itis, hospital bills and...

[00:15:23] Ben: Just time most of its time.

[00:15:25] Steven: But as you would've found out from your own family experiences, that the longer you're in treatment, the longer these things cost, and to be perfectly blunt, the most expensive cancer treatments are the ones that don't work.

[00:15:39] Steven: Yes, so some of these cell therapies are frighteningly expensive. We're looking to get those down. But in blood cancers, it's a one and done infusion. And if that person can have a complete remission and get back to work, become a productive member of society and pay their taxes, then the overall burden on the healthcare system is... it’s actually not a burden at all.

[00:16:01] Ben: That'd be a net positive.

[00:16:03] Steven: That's right. Otherwise, people consume 80% of their lifetime healthcare costs in the last two years of their lives. It's about curative intent. I think for too long people have been too self-satisfied in oncology and have been high fiving themselves on incrementalism.

[00:16:22] Steven: "Oh great, we've extended life by a few months or in some cases, weeks." Come on, give me a break. This is what Prescient stands for: about trying to make a difference, not a dent. And I think we've got technologies now at our disposal where we owe it to our patients and to shareholders for that matter to swing for the fences and have curative intent go hard or go home. We've got the technology now. We can aim higher.

[00:16:48] Ben: Great. I want to get to a few shareholder-style questions in a minute, but you've obviously got the foundation therapies. You’ve got the CAR-T stuff. So, talk to me about the number of trials that you are in and what stage they're at. And maybe just like a one-minute education on how many stages there are.

[00:17:09] Steven: Sure thing. I'll start with that last point. First, the typical journey in developing a therapy is discovery. In a lab that's a bunch of white coats and whatnot, and that moves to lead identification.

[00:17:22] Steven: Then some preclinical studies in typically mice and then the rubber hits the road normally in human clinical trials where there's phase one, phase two, phase three. Phase one: is it safe? Phase two: does it look like it's working? Phase three: let's definitively workout how well it's working, let's quantify that, and is it better than what’s out there?

[00:17:45] Steven: So typically, companies in Australia, you don't do a phase three trial, that definitive one is incredibly costly. Australian companies normally palm their trials off to a big brother or sister who has the pockets for that sort of a trial. That can sometimes be hundreds of millions of dollars in seven years, but the payoff is enormous. If you get a blockbuster drug, you can make that back in year one. We have a bunch of therapies against that backdrop. Our foundational assets PTX 100 and 200 are in phase one B studies, so that's where we are looking at safety, but also efficacy to see how well they work. For PTX 200 that has, in acute myeloid leukemias, we've had four complete remissions and that's due to finish that trial this year.

[00:18:32] Ben: Four out of how many people?

[00:18:33] Steven: So, there's been 25 enrolled, but when you look at those patients that really received a full cycle of treatment and didn’t have to withdraw, because they were super sick for other reasons, it’s really about 15, 16. So that, that looks good.

[00:18:46] Steven: Once you start having a look at that and in PTX 100 is a similar stage of development, but with the potential to really accelerate ahead that's in T-Cell lymphoma. It's a different type of blood cancer and in that type of blood cancer because it's an orphan indication, meaning it's not incredibly prevalent, we have the opportunity to truncate that phase one, two, and three down to basically two steps. And we are currently in the last part of that first step. So, we've seen a really interesting response in some patients, if that looks confirmed, we'll go straight to the equivalent of that big phase three study. So that's really exciting.

[00:19:27] Steven: And just on Friday gone, we got a notification from the US Food and Drug Administration, FDA, that PTX 100 has been granted orphan drug designation. So that means there's a bunch of incentives there and advantages, but it basically means that by the time you get to the market, you've got guaranteed market exclusivity for seven years.

[00:19:50] Steven: So yeah, you show me another business where they say, "we're going to make sure you have no competitors for seven years". So that's basically what that drug has being given. Yeah, for PTX 100 in peripheral T-Cell lymphoma. So that's super exciting.

[00:20:05] Steven: That stage of development, I'd invite you to think about that a little bit differently because PTX 100 could get, in the event of success, could get to the finish line a lot sooner.

[00:20:13] Ben: And so, what's that timeline like though? What is "a lot sooner"?

[00:20:17] Steven: So instead of basically what we are doing now would take around five years, we're due to finish that at the end of this year and have a readout next year.

[00:20:29] Steven: So, we are saving years and years. When you work out the NPV of that, the savings are insane, but it's also how much it costs. Instead of doing a $300 million definitive study, you're doing like a $30 or $40 million definitive study that you can carry yourself. And if we don't partner it, you capture all of that value.

[00:20:50] Ben: You're not needing to sell the farm. You’re sitting there today with about $110, $120 million market cap. You've got the size and the space to fund something like that yourself. Whereas if it was$300 million, you start sitting there...

[00:21:03] Steven: You have to try to find a partner, or you could maybe start it, but not finish it, which is not the place you want to be. So yeah, it gives us optionality for sure. We may want to partner that if we get a good signal, but we won't need to. The return could be enormous with a disease like T-cell lymphoma as well you might even want to market it ourselves. So, it's not like you need a sales force of 1500 people roaming around the US. You could have a dozen sales reps, because they get funnelled toa small number of sites, these patients, and you can target it with a very small sales force.

[00:21:37] Steven: Prescient at that stage would become a specialty pharma company in the event of success.

[00:21:43] Ben: So that's obviously amazing upside. Tellme about the. What's the downside?

[00:21:48] Steven: The risks. Yeah. It's important to talk about the risks because the risks are that it doesn't work. We are seeing an encouraging enough signal now that we know something, is there, especially with PTX 100, it's used as a monotherapy; we're only using that one drug in the patients. These patients have been have tried and failed five to seven therapies, so they're beat up, they're not responding to anything else. And the patients who are responding now are responding because of our drug, so if we can replicate that with bigger numbers, then that'll give us increasing confidence with the more data the better.

[00:22:23] Steven: Normally there's another big risk with toxicities. With PTX 100, we're not seeing that at all. So that's tremendously encouraging. They normally fail at that hurdle, especially in T-cell lymphoma, so that's giving us a lot of encouragement there.

[00:22:38] Ben: I've got a couple of questions on, competitiveness or positioning of pre in the market, like in the ASX. First of all, you've mentioned you touched on it before, but you were in corporate finance for seven years. I think.

[00:22:51] Steven: No, mate you're being very kind there now. It was more like 14, 15.

[00:22:55] Ben: Oh, wow. There you go. And how do you think that's impacted your approach to the role here now leading a listed business?

[00:23:02] Steven: The people holding checks always think they’re the smartest ones in the room. And I guess I thought I was one of those as well, but what it did afford me was it was almost like doing a 14-year MBA course of case study after case study, because every one of them was different.

[00:23:17] Steven: Not only the technologies were different, but the circumstances how they were run the strategies. And I also, I was very hands on. It's not until now I reflect on it, and I see what others are doing in my former role that I realise that I was probably over servicing companies and was very hands on even in between transactions, in helping strategy formation, and " I like this drug, but I don't like this indication for these competitive reasons", or "I don't like this endpoint have let's talk about that." It helped me prepare for this role, but also, I was unburdened with bias. I wasn't the founder, I wasn't the inventor of the drugs, so I didn't have founder's disease where I was absolutely married to the technology. And your child is the most beautiful child and there's no other child like it's special. I didn't have any of that at all, so I was able to look at things a little bit more objectively than I guess if I was a founder.

[00:24:11] Ben: Yeah, look as a founder I can definitely agree that there's times when you do get blinkered, and being able to step back and look at it objectively is very important. And being able to do that from the start would be amazing, I think. And that's probably why you were able to set that foundation over a number of years to build the momentum. To get the right process going and kick things off, and it's already showing results, which is fantastic.

[00:24:38] Ben: From a competition point of view, do you look at, do you look at the other biotech oncology businesses on the ASX? Do you look at these as competitors for investor dollars? Do you look at it as a “we’re all in the same boat", what's your approach and your view on that?

[00:24:54] Steven: I'll be very clear on this, and the media and a lot of investors are very keen to pit companies against one another. I guess it's a good story to tell, but I'll be very clear: other companies are not the enemy, cancer is the enemy, and the more we can collaborate the better. There is a little bit of competition for investor dollars, but there seems to be enough money sloshing around.

[00:25:16] Steven: I guess some technologies you have to defend because there's a competing approach to that technology. I don't think there's an abundance of that occurring in Australia. But what I really like about Prescient positioning is, especially with OmniCAR, which is the flagship cell therapy that we have, it's a modular platform. What that means is that we are agnostic on the cancer target and the binders we use to attack those cancer cells, and we're also agnostic on the cell. So, there's a bunch of companies out there that are developing either one of those, " here's our special type of binders, we think these are going to win." Others are saying, “here’s our special cell type, these are going to win." We're in a position where we can say, "good luck to you, that's fantastic, we can work with you regardless of those, because the magic is in the modularity. If you want yours controllable and adaptable and to work better, then come talk to us."

[00:26:11] Steven: Basically, if our competitors, if our peers start doing well, they'll be in a position to collaborate. They can be a customer or collaborator. So, I'm actually cheering for many of them.

[00:26:22] Ben: Do you treat it at say the modularisation, do you treat that as a technology play or an infrastructure play or a bit of both?

[00:26:32] Steven: I'd think about it as a technology play. It's a different way of doing it. Yeah, it's almost like being like the Intel chip inside other computers or, the Dolby in the speakers.

[00:26:43] Ben: And does that change you know, path to commercialization and moving from being a developer to an operator?

[00:26:52] Steven: It does, it's a different way of thinking about it. Normally the payoff for a biotech is very linear. So, you start a journey and at the end of that journey, there might be a payoff. You might monetise that a little bit earlier by licensing, and that has not happened very often in Australia. It's hard to do globally. Like people think I’d just pick up the phone and partner your drug. How many partnerships can you name in the last 10 years? There's almost none because it's hard to do. So normally you have to rely on you finishing the journey. You start the journey, you finish the journey, and you get paid for it. That can be a big payoff for those that reach the finish.

[00:27:33] Steven: What is different about our business model with our cell therapies, especially, and I haven't even spoken about CellPryme, which is our manufacturing one, is that they can be dropped into any other process. So yes, we are using these platforms to develop products. But in parallel, we can monetise these platforms a lot sooner by collaborating and licensing with third parties who are basically replicating what we are doing for different products off our balance sheet.

[00:28:06] Steven: And we get the benefit along the journey and when they win as well. So, it's a very different business model and it is highly scalable. But I'll be clear, I don't want to be one of these platform companies that move sideways forever and at the end of 10 years they say, "so what have you developed?"

[00:28:25] Steven: I've seen too many of those, no desire to do that at all. We are developing products. We've got three products for OmniCAR that we are developing. A couple of those will have got their noses in front of the others, but we are developing products. So, as I like to say, you judge the quality of the tree by the type of fruit it produces. We are producing the fruit, make no mistake, but these platforms can actually be monetised earlier through external collaborations, partnerships, and licenses.

[00:28:51] Ben: Nice. Now I'm conscious of time, so thank you very much. I've got two, two questions left. So, the first one is just what have I missed? What have we, what did we skip over? What should I have asked what important nugget did I did I walk by?

[00:29:05] Steven: It hasn't been a linear chat. So, I hope people have just got a sense of the scale of our operations and the how de-risked it is. And just through the number of shots on goal, we haven't spoken about CellPryme, which is another cell therapy manufacturing technology platform that we announced a few weeks ago it's been so well received. Basically, it’s a non-interventional technology that drops into a manufacturing process to expand these cells. And it basically produces a more youthful, better performing cell regardless of the process. And it's ready for clinical trials right now, and that's a no brainer. That's a walk up start to anyone manufacturing a cell. Would you want to produce a better cell? Or do you want to produce an older, more exhausted one? Of course, you want the first one, so that’s pretty exciting as well.

[00:29:51] Ben: Yeah. That's very nice. And my last question that I like to ask is it's been for you what six, seven years now? Your journey at PTX, so what you may have already answered this too, but why are you still here?

[00:30:05] Steven: I'm more committed than ever now. I think, especially, and to be perfectly honest, I think these cell therapies have given me a new lease of life because of the excitement of the data it's producing, and it just happens to coincide with generating some exciting data on our foundational assets too.

[00:30:23] Steven: But, in God we trust, everyone else has to bring data. It's all about the data and the data that we are producing, it’s doing what it says on the label at a stage where we didn't expect it to. So, it's incredibly exciting and if we can do this, we are prying open the door for everyone.

[00:30:38] Steven: Who wouldn't want to be part of that? The technology, basically the world's best cell therapy technology that’s winning on the data, which can help you and everyone else is... Who wouldn’t want to be part of that!? I'm so I'm here until I'm not. One day there'll be a better person to take over.

[00:30:55] Ben: No, we're not getting back to that.

[00:30:57] Steven: And I'll gratefully and humbly step aside and help that person. Hopefully that person is a woman.

[00:31:04] Ben: I think you're doing a fantastic job and, “who wouldn't want to be part of that?" is a great way to finish. I think look, one of the big reasons we do the chairman's list is to, and we go on this bit of a meandering path of questions is because we, I want to follow the excitement and the interest and the passion, that's a big point.

[00:31:22] Ben: And I think that when you're doing institutional road shows and the like people get to do that, and they get to pick certain levels and see where you want head. And sometimes the more retail focused interviews are very regimented or page turning a deck. And so, I really want to give people that breadth of view and see why you're excited and where your excitement lies. Because I think that goes a long way to understanding not just where the business is now, but the future, and hearing you, you definitely get the sense that you are excited. You are interested. This is your baby.

[00:31:54] Ben: I know it's not, you're not the founder. You weren't, this is a hundred percent your baby Steven. I can tell. Yeah, no it’s been great. We'll wrap up now but thank you very much. And good luck.

[00:32:04] Steven: Thank you so much. Thanks everyone.

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